Goodnight Saigon
Based on what we've read so far throughout the quarter,
who has a better grasp of the war-
Billy Joel or Tim O'Brien?
posted by D. Robin @ 10/06/2008
6 comments
Monday, October 06, 2008
who has a better grasp of the war-
Billy Joel or Tim O'Brien?
6 Comments:
Based on what we have read so far through out the quarter, I believe that Tim O’Brien has a better grasp of the war. Billy Joel creates a somewhat utopian view of what the war ought to be like, whereas Tim O’Brien tells true stories he himself has experienced. Because of these stories, O’Brien has a more realistic view on the war, making him also have a better grasp on the war itself.
While they express many of the same themes throughout both pieces, Tim O’Brien shows his audience how they applied to each and every soldier while Billy Joel simply tells his audience what the majority of soldiers felt. Because O’Brien speaks on behalf of an entire army of men, he makes his ideas more concrete, and by having more concrete ideas he therefore has a better grasp on the war itself than Billy Joel.
-Melissa Baxter :)
O’Brien and Joel have strong grasps about the war and it is difficult to decide who has a better grasp. It all depends on the perspective. For Joel, he understands that brotherhood and unity were a major part of the war with his use of ‘we’ and ‘us’, not to mention the lyrics “and we would all go down together/we said we’d all go down together/yes we would all go down together” being sung by no only him, but a group of men. This creates a sense of unity because it is no longer just Joel singing, it is no longer just an individual, but an army. However, Joel fails to recognize that some soldiers did not want to go to war. He paints a picture of soldiers ready and excited to fight by using “gung ho” and meeting as “soul mates” as if soldiers were destined to meet each other. O’Brien knows from personal experience that not all men wanted to be there. From his own experience of running up to Canada to escape the draft, O’Brien not only describes his experience, but a general feeling that some soldiers did not want to meet each other nor fight this war. Different experience permit different perspectives of the Vietnam War and this fact promotes me to decide that both Billy Joel and Tim O’Brien have a firm grasp on the war.
Sam Rill
I believe that Tim O'Brien has a better grasp of the war because he tells stories that we have never heard before and gives us the insight that we have never seen. His war stories are true war stories, he tells the audience the cold hard truth, his stories make the stomach believe, and they are also not moral, which are all what he described a true war story to be. As for Billy Joel, who generalizes more and tells us stories that we have heard in many other instances. I believe the more the audience learns from the story, the better grasp the author has of the sitution.
Based on the material we have presented with in class O'Brien clearly has a better understanding of the war. O'Brien of course has much more material to demonstrate his understanding of the war because he has an entire book while Joel has only a short song. However, even with this advantage taken into account, O'Brien has much more depth in his understanding. (I have ignored the advantage of detail which is the greatest advantage gained by O'Brien in having more text.) O'Brien explores the mentalities of many different soldiers, including Curt Lemon and Dave Jensen, while Joel does not. O'Brien talks about draft dodging in "On the Rainy River" and again Joel misses the point. O'Brien talks about the lasting effects of the war in "Speaking of Courage"; Joel does not. O'Brien makes many more points that Joel does not which clearly proves, based on the material, that O'Brien has a better understanding of the war. Although Joel makes one important point that O'Brien fails to mention, basic training. In "Goodnight Saigon", Joel refers specifically to Parris Island, where Marine Basic training takes place. Basic training is very important because all enlisted soldiers must go through it. It unites them and molds them. This single point, however, doesn't place Joel ahead of O'Brien. Based on what we have been presented with O'Brien clearly has a better understanding of the war than Joel, however, I believe that in order for a fair comparison to be made I need more of Joel's texts.
-Chris A. Baker
Based on criterias and materials about war that we covered in class, Tim O'Brien has a better grasp of the war. Even though Billy Joel uses effective juxtapositions to describe the war, he doesn't have strong characters to support the war story. Tim O'Brien uses detailed descriptions and specific characters, while Joel uses vague storyline and perspectives. The vagueness can be helpful to understnad war sometimes, but O'Brien's analysis of every characters and what happened throught the war is more effective on the readers. With a series of vignettes, O'Brien even helps the readers to feel empathy towards certain characters. Using strong rhetorical appeals in THE THINGS THEY CARRIED, the main themes of the war and soldiers' experiences successfully transfer to the readers. Since O'Brien has really been to the Vietnam war, he has a better ethos to convince the audience with his messages. On the other hand, Joel doesn't have a strong character development, but leaves the story to audience's interpretation. Joe's abstract and vague idea does describes his grasp at the war but O'Brien's strong characters and story line explain to the readers that he has a better grasp of the war than Joel.
I believe Billy Joel has a better understanding of war than Tim O'Brien. Billy Joel chose the genre of song to tell his war story. Most song lyrics do not exceed one page. Billy Joel's ability to create a concise war story gives him a better understanding of war because he can make his point quickly. Also Billy Joel seems to truly understand the effects war can have on a soldier. He accurately accounts how young people gather to enroll in war "like tameless horses" but when these young and innocent people return home they find that war changes them into "inmates from an asylum" ("Goodnight Saigon"). War has funny affects on the brain and Billy Joel understands this.
Tim O'Brien does not understand war like Billy Joel because O'Brien tells stories only of his experiences. O'Brien does not truly know why or how war causes pain or mental suffering. He only knows what war does through his experiences in Vietnam. In his vignette titled "Notes" O'Brien remembers the effect the letter from Norman Bowker had on him. Although he does not consider his writing a form of therapy, writing did help him move "through a swirl of memories that might otherwise have ended in paralysis or worse" sufferings for him (p.158 TTC). Here O'Brien admits to writing for the purpose of trying to understand the war he experienced because he does not already understand it.
Marni Gonnering
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